STOVL Aircraft

Mewshkin · Post by **Mewshkin** » Feb 26 2003

How are VTOL aircraft simulated? Can they land anywhere (in friendly territory) and be resupplied, or do they need special FARPs? Can they take off from roads? Can they be operated from smaller (non-carrier) ships like helicopters?

The Inquisitive Mewshkin

Post by **George Geczy** » Mar 01 2003

An excellent question!

In the game we currently support three basic types of air unit deployment:

- Helicopters
- Fixed-wing with VTOL
- Fixed-wing without VTOL

Helicopters can refuel in any supplied friendly territory, as long as they are not moving or fighting. They refuel faster at airbases, airstrips, or ground bases. They can also get replacements for lost strength at a base. Finally, they can be carried on any type of naval carrier (short deck & long deck carriers).

Fixed wing without VTOL must return to an airbase, airstrip, or long-deck carrier to refuel and rearm. If they are unable to make it back to a friendly base (ie, base taken over), then they will be lost.

Fixed wing with VTOL are a bit problematic. One special case, the V-22 Osprey, is actually not classified as fixed wing by us, instead as a cargo helicopter in the game, to give it the same forward-line features as the helicopters have. Currently, the VTOL jets (Harriers and Yak-38/Yak-141) are still considered airplanes, meaning that they cannot land to refuel at land-bases or supplied terrain. They can, however, land on 'short deck' naval carriers, just like helicopters (there are a number of aircraft carriers designed for just this purpose).

Chris had mentioned in the past that it seemed silly to have a Harrier 'fall out of the sky' if it ran out of fuel; it could simply land on any flat terrain. However, there is also an argument to be made that resupplying/rearming jet aircraft is more complex and couldn't simply be done in any Walmart parking lot. So presently, we don't let them land and resupply except at an air facility.

Regarding 'FARP's (Forward Arming and Refueling Points), we simulate that by our recent addition of an 'airstrip' upgrade. Unlike an Airbase, this one doesn't let you train new air units; it does however build much faster (25 days), and so can be deployed more quickly towards front lines. We also simulate this concept by allowing Helicopters (but not airplanes) to resupply at any friendly supplied hex.

-- George.

PS - a rambling discussion of the use of FARPs by the Marines in Desert Storm (the first one) can be found at:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 92/MSE.htm

PPS - I would also imagine that if Walmart thought it profitable to get into the business of refueling and rearming VTOL aircraft, they would do it. We could always consider the "Walmart Re-Arming Depot" to be a future upgrade type

Mewshkin · Post by **Mewshkin** » Mar 03 2003

re: Walmart, that depends, is Michael Moore still around in 2010?

Post by **George Geczy** » Mar 05 2003

Getting beyond the Walmart comments of this thread, the question does still remain open - does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on the use of forward-bases for air units, or does the above sound like it should cover all the bases?

-- George.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Mar 05 2003

I'm for the 'FARP's as long as there is enough dev time that no other feature gets cut to add them.

If a feature would have to get cut,I might still be for them depending on the feature on the block.

Mewshkin · Post by **Mewshkin** » Mar 11 2003

I'm quite happy with the idea of FARPs as you've outlined it, one thing, how visible are these bases? One of the main points of dispersal from fixed runways (at least in RAF service) is to make the aircraft hard to find and destroy, and their bases are usually concealed - if the FARPs are as visible to the enemy as a normal airbase, this quality is lost.

I like the fact VTOL planes can operate from short deck carriers, do these include landing craft? I'm not certain, but US landing craft operate harriers, don't they?

IBK02 · Post by **IBK02** » Mar 11 2003

I think the implementation of a FARP is fantastic. I imagine you could store aircraft there as well correct? Are there upgrades that could be made. Small FARP, Large FARP?

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » May 21 2003

It's rare to have any aircraft based at FARPs. All the FARPs I've ever seen were just gas stations for helicopters - you come in, get serviced and you leave. It's not to say that it isn't possible, but why have a unit based at a FARP when you could just make a forward airstrip?

FARPs are designed to be small and mobile, basing units with them would make them large and slow, especially when you factor in all the support crews. All the FARPs I've ever been on had one or two fuel HEMMTs, a HEMMT or 5-ton truck with ammo and spare parts, a HMMWV for the air control team and an APC or HMMWV for a squad-sized security element.

3iff · Post by **3iff** » May 22 2003

If I remember correctly from earlier posts, the player would have to override a planes orders to make it run out of fuel...the plane only going far enough to be able to return to a currently friendly base.

If that's true, then if planes run out of fuel (even harriers when they might be able to land anywhere), then they should be considered lost...one of the misfortunes of war.

Of course, if a tanker aircraft is around then perhaps they can get a topup. On a related note, do tanker aircraft carry an amount of fuel (as cargo) that gets used up by visiting aircraft?

Airstrips sound fine.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 3iff on 2003-05-22 00:27 ]</font>

Post by **Balthagor** » May 22 2003

We currenlty had intended to have "mid air refueling" as a tech item that offered an across the board benefit but we've started to consider putting them in as seperate units. Latest review of the game makes us think it wouldn't be hard to change our mind on it...

Hellfish6 · Post by **Hellfish6** » May 22 2003

IMHO, tankers should be separate units. That way, they are vulnerable to attack, more costly to develop and deploy (which they are in real life - very few countries actually have mid air fefueling capability because of the cost, not because of technology) and more of a strategic dilemma for the player. Do you deploy the tankers to support your war in the north or your border patrol in the south? Can you forward deploy your tankers at a friendly foreign base to strike at an enemy 1000s of miles away?

3iff · Post by **3iff** » May 23 2003

Whoops, I thought you were going to have mid-air refuelling...although I know ideas change during development.

It's probably a good idea to have this IF it can be easily implemented. Not sure how it works in real life but I assume the tanker stays in one place (1 hex?) and thirsty planes go to the correct co-ordinates for a topup? Is this right?

It should also be easy to assign a few planes to fly with the tankers as protection?

Post by **Balthagor** » May 23 2003

No promises here, but I've been thinking that having them as seperate units would be nice. If it doesn't make it before release, should be an easy patch after the fact. I'll add it to my wish list for pre-release and we'll need to make a decission one way or the other.