Naval repairs and spotting ranges.

[Balthagor]

We’ve had 2 new questions come up pertaining to naval combat;

1. Should boats be able to repair away from ports?

The argument against it is that if we represent one boat as 10 “sections”, when one section has taken enough damage to be destroyed, it can’t be fixed enough to increase the strength of the boat without going back to dock. The argument for it is that many boats, particularly larger ones, can affect numerous repairs while at sea.

If we do allow repairing of boats, it would cost supplies so that ships can only repair so much without receiving more supplies, but that would mean boats would never have to return to a port if they are in supplied territory.

2. Line of sight distances for boats. How far should a boat be able to see?

This one is a little harder to explain without seeing our line of sight model, but I’ll try and explain. Our line of sight model is set that if a unit can see into a hex, it sees everything in the hex. Either you can, or cannot see what is in a hex.

The issue is that most of the larger boats have radar coverage for ~120 miles. So they should be able to see a boat or a plane from 120 miles away. But in the game that means they see everything in any hex within 120-mile radius, even onto land to spot tanks.

At one point we had discussed the idea of having a land LOS and air LOS but found no way to make it clear to the players how far they can see on which level. It would be confusing to players to be attacked from ground that is fully visible to them but has no unit in it because radar is being used to "see" the area and the attack is coming from the ground

My first thought for a solution to this is that naval unit spotting ranges are 1/3 distance over land hexes. This would mean that planes 120 miles over land would not be seen but I think that can be attributed to the fact that naval spotting is intended to spot over water…?

[tkobo]

[quote]
On 2003-01-29 09:06, Balthagor wrote:
We’ve had 2 new questions come up pertaining to naval combat;

1. Should boats be able to repair away from ports?

me: Yes,they do in real life.There are even floating drydocks,ships that can lift another ship out of the water in order to do serious reppair work.

"The argument against it is that if we represent one boat as 10 “sections”, when one section has taken enough damage to be destroyed, it can’t be fixed enough to increase the strength of the boat without going back to dock. The argument for it is that many boats, particularly larger ones, can affect numerous repairs while at sea."

Me: Both Very accuarate points of view.I lean toward the second argument however.Solution if needed is simply to make it so a ship cannot reppair to FULL health while at sea,but can reppair up to a set percentage.I'd pick around 70-80%.

"If we do allow repairing of boats, it would cost supplies so that ships can only repair so much without receiving more supplies, but that would mean boats would never have to return to a port if they are in supplied territory."

Me: Again very good point.The solution is to apply the same "fatique" system you use for aircraft to make them go home,to the ships.Just please increase the time alotted before it kicks in for ships

2. Line of sight distances for boats. How far should a boat be able to see?

Me: A modern equipped ship should be able to see to the horizon on its own.If it has an air cap ,that range should be extended according to the caps horizon.If it has sattelite support that range should be extended severely.See article link covering this in naval layered defense thread.

"This one is a little harder to explain without seeing our line of sight model, but I’ll try and explain. Our line of sight model is set that if a unit can see into a hex, it sees everything in the hex. Either you can, or cannot see what is in a hex."

Me: not sure what to do here.I really dont like this sight model.It makes movement in enemy territory impossible to be secret and spotting in general too easy.

"The issue is that most of the larger boats have radar coverage for ~120 miles. So they should be able to see a boat or a plane from 120 miles away. But in the game that means they see everything in any hex within 120-mile radius, even onto land to spot tanks."

Me: This is because ,as you mentioned above,the way the sight model works.The sight model needs to have some changes or adjustments made to it imho.

"At one point we had discussed the idea of having a land LOS and air LOS but found no way to make it clear to the players how far they can see on which level. It would be confusing to players to be attacked from ground that is fully visible to them but has no unit in it because radar is being used to "see" the area and the attack is coming from the ground"

Me: But this is the way it happens in realife.Now I know thats not a solid argument because this is a game and not realife and some exceptions need to be made accordingly.But the exceptions can cause just as many probelms as the original problem it tried to solve.

"My first thought for a solution to this is that naval unit spotting ranges are 1/3 distance over land hexes. This would mean that planes 120 miles over land would not be seen but I think that can be attributed to the fact that naval spotting is intended to spot over water…?"

Me:Naval spotting is also meant to spot units on land and in air also.So they can bombard land/defend against air.Of course range is very limmited on what they can spot land wise even if looking over land for air units, but this is mostly because of the terrain of the land.

Me:I think that a possible solution is to have a given hex adjust spotting ability by its terrain type.So that a ship trying to spot land units in rough terrain would be extremely hard pressed.As it would trying to spot aircaft flying NAP in rough terrian.
This way units on land could be spotted and lost due to movement on their part or the spotters.This would also happen for air units.
This terrain modifier should be applied to the profile of any units that are in siad hex.It should be very possible that a unit cannot be seen do to a low profile based not only on the unit itselfs hiding ability but also by where its hiding.

Now the problem with this suggestion is of course with the scale of a hex and the map.

What adjustment if any do you make to a unit with muliple terrain types ?This should be handled 2 way imho.First the unit should have a choice to hide in its orders menu.This choice would determine the profile bonus if any applied.If hide is the choice picked the unit should recive the highest possible terrain profile modifeir for its hex.
If hide is not the order chosen,then the lowest.
Second any hex between the spotting unit and the unit its looking for should have an automatic effect on the units profile IF it adds a larger profile bonus than the terrain and orders choice of the hex its in.
air units should be able to ingore this intervening terrian if they chose.

IE a ship is offshore of hostile land. the shoreline consists of a 3000' tall mountian hex.The hex after the mountain hex(heading inland) is flat plains 3000" lower than the mountain shore hex.This second hex contains infrantry in the open having a party with red haired green eyed serving wenches.
The ship should have ZERO chance of spotting the infrantry on its own.
NEXT
IE same hexs ,same situatiion ,same wenches,different spotting unit.
An Air unit is approaching from the sea towards a hostile land hex.The shore hex is as stated above.The air unit should have the option of popping up for a better look at whats behind the mountain hex before it crosses it.Unless it litterly (sp)flies thru the mountian (ouch ) it has to rise above it anyway in order to cross it anyway.

Range from spotter to spottie (sp)(word?)should also be a factor.The farther away something is the harder to spot it should be.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tkobo on 2003-01-30 14:23 ]</font>