unit observability,attack range,suprise attacks

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 04 2002

How will the spotting of a unit work ?

If no unit can pass thru a hex controlled by an enemy without attacking/being detected won't an area's security be unrealistic ?

Stealth aircraft will not be able to perform their true job.

Subs will not be able to perform their true job.

Does a unit that is unseen automatically become seen if it attacks ?

I would really like for there to be units that can attack and withdraw without being seen.
There should be very few of this type of unit but they should exist IMHO.

The whole "who attacked me?" kind of thing is just too cool not to have in the game.

Post by **Balthagor** » Sep 04 2002

Some of these details are going to be discussed in the next week so you have good timing on your post. I'm going to come back to the spotting ranges in a few days if you don't mind, but I will talk about the unseen units you're asking for. Our general idea behind stealth units is that, without very advanced surveillence systems, you would only see Stealth units when they are maybe 3-4 hexes from their target. They would then appear, make the attack, and start heading for home. As they leave, they would likley be tracked for 5-10 hexes (?) until manage to shake the signal and again disappear. This would mean that you could use an F117 to fly over an area of the border that you feel is a low detection area, fly to your target in the heart of enemy territory, bomb, and run back out the way you came. The player would see the plane attack but there is some question what level of identification they would get. That is the general idea.

As for subs, I actually need some opinions here. If you move a sub towards my border and find that I have ships every 4 hexes, clearly I have gaps that a low profile sub can fit through. But what if I have a ship in every other hex? That means I have a Unit or zone of control on every hex in a straight line. Should certain subs still be able to cross undetected? I wouldn't think so but haven't had a chance to do any research on this yet! (Heck, I only have a handfull of subs in the equipment file so far!)

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Sep 04 2002

I have no expertise in this field so I may be wrong...

Submarine detection would depend on the ship type. I think destroyers are generally better equipped as subhunters, whereas aircraft carriers would have minimal sub detection, relying on other ships to protect them.

Also depends on the hex scale, which you may have mentioned but I cannot recall what it was.

Fairly critical too is the ability for a sub to be below an enemy ship (same hex) but remain undetected. Difficult, I know, but very desirable I would have thought.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 04 2002

Subs:

Okay with the hexs picketed 1 in 4 a modern sub should have zero problem getting in undetected.

With the hexs picketed 1 in 2 a sub should still be able to get in due to stealth techniques.IE different ways of hiding while still moving,although movement is god awful slow.

With hexs picketed 1 for 1 it should still be possible BUT be highly dependant on the type of detection capability of the picket line ships/aircraft/sensors,depth of water,type of sub and speed of travel of those involved.

Its my understanding that at roughly 150ft depth ,traveling at 1/3 bell or less (roughly 6 knots) a Los Ang. class can penetrate almost any non-war time defense.

The seawolf is even more impressive- "At 25 knots, our boat is quieter than the last [Los Angeles] class submarines sitting at the pier" -qoute from Lt. Cmdr. Bob Aronson, a seawolf boat's executive officer.

There is a famous sub testing facility in Idaho at some lake (name escapes me).The majority of the testing done there is done in a roughly 25 sq mile area in the middle of the lake.
Subs regularly prove they can unvoid detection while doing 8-12 miles runs around the lake.
Testing is done by both full size subs and scale models.
There is even some wild rumors about an underground river that runs to the pacific ocean that is used to transport the high secrecacy subs/models into the lake.

There is a new attack sub supposed to be being tested/worked on out there right now named "cuttroat".

Stealth Aircraft:
I dont believe they should be seen at all unless they attack.

I also dont think detection should be automatic even when they are attacking.
In desert storm stealth bombers were not actually spotted at all,they were usaully gone by the time the attack was felt/detected and it was assumed the attack was by a stealth aircraft.
I have read articles where it showed that some attacks thought by iraq to have been done by stealth aircraft were actaully done by cruise missiles running nap.

If a stealth aircraft is detected it should be visiable for no more than 4 or 6 hexs.
I also feel that once they cross into friendly territory no matter the range of detection that they should simply dissapear due to the jamming and other support they would recieve.

I am basing my ranges in hexs based on the 10-20km hexs described in the mines thread.

I also believe strongly that the highest tech stealth units (aircraft or ships/subs)
should be ungodly expensive in game not only to build but to support.
I mean damn, the US has trouble getting the budget it needs to build and support these units.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 04 2002

3iff,
actually carriers are the best ships at detecting subs due to the extensive anti-sub aircraft they carry.

Post by **BattleGoat** » Sep 04 2002

Regarding the visibility of "invisible units". Just because you can see a unit, doesn't mean you can attack it. The reason you can see a Stealth Fighter make its attack would be strictly for game play. That way you saw the attack and know generally what happened. The profile of the unit could generally make it impossible to defend against though. So my thought is that even though you can see the Stealth, you can't get a radar return on it and can't engage. You would pretty much have to have a fighter entering the same in flying into the same hex to actually get a bead on the unit and engage.

Subs are sort of similar... I agree that they should be able to penetrate coastal waters without much chance of detection in "real life", but even though you can't find a sub, doesn't mean you didn't get enough clues as to its existance. Meaning that you might of heard enough to get a sniff that a sub is there, so therefore the map would display it, but you wouldn't be able to actually engage it because of its profile.

How does that sound??? The idea of just seeing something blow up for no apparent reason might be more accurate, but might not appeal to gamers. Besides, even if you didn't really "see" the Stealth, you would "KNOW" it was there, so the game is really just reflecting that knowledge.

OPINIONS???

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 04 2002

I'm not sure how that would work as I dont know how the combat system works BUT it sounds good.

This brings up another topic I hadnt thought of til you kinda mention it.

Phantom units .Will there be units that can or a way to make units appear to be something else or appear somewhere they are not ?
Decoys,false radar images ,that kind of thing.

Post by **BattleGoat** » Sep 04 2002

This brings up another topic I hadnt thought of til you kinda mention it. Phantom units . Will there be units that can or a way to make units appear to be something else or appear somewhere they are not ? Decoys,false radar images ,that kind of thing.

Don't think so. I know if SR2010 was strictly a wargame they could be of some use, but I don't think we need to unnecessarily complicate things with this type of unit. I'll keep it in the back of my brain and see if there is a place for them, but in the meantime I wouldn't count on it.

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Sep 05 2002

actually carriers are the best ships at detecting subs due to the extensive anti-sub aircraft they carry.

I said I had no expertise in that area. I was proved correct! Thanks, Tkobo.

Actually, I forgot about the ASW helicopters.

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Sep 05 2002

I agree with knowing what just made the attack, even if you don't know exactly where it is or even being able to return the attack.

XeroMan · Post by **XeroMan** » Sep 07 2002

Why not have a generic sub and bomber marker? That way you know that there is a sub there, or an aircraft, but you have no idea what kind it is.

Post by **BattleGoat** » Sep 08 2002

On 2002-09-07 11:00, XeroMan wrote:
Why not have a generic sub and bomber marker? That way you know that there is a sub there, or an aircraft, but you have no idea what kind it is.

Something to think about... We'll have to see how things shake out in testing.