mines ? land and or sea ?

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Aug 30 2002

If so , with the hexs so large ,how will they work ?

Will friendly forces be subject to accidental mine damage ?Or will they have free passage thru their own mine fields ?

Post by **George Geczy** » Sep 01 2002

Funny you should mention this - Chris and I were just talking about mine layers and mine clearing units a couple of days ago. (And something about how Partisan units would make good mine clearing devices

)

We have not actually set the rules for minefields yet; early guesses would be that friendly units would not take damage when traversing mined hexes. Land and Sea hexes could be mined.

Given the 10km to 20km width of hexes, it may seem improbable to "mine" a full hex, but we could assume that the most obvious travel points would get mined, therefore making it more effective.

If anyone has any other ideas about mines, speak now, we're still in the early stages of thinking about this!

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 02 2002

According to many news articles,India is in the process of mining its entire 1,800 mile border with pakistan right now.
Its said that there will be mine fields as large as 3 miles wide in size.

Pakistan is said to be doing the same and both have now openly confirmed so.

This makes me think that maybe we should be able to mine an entire border if we choose to.

However, there should be some kind of bad effect tied to doing so ingame if possible.

Maybe an increased mortality rate among your civillians ?
Or a decrease in food production ?

Empier4552 · Post by **Empier4552** » Sep 02 2002

I'd say while friendly damage to troops may not happen definitely civilian casualties should arise but be calculated based on the population of the hex. Additionally I'd say for friendly units travelling it would give them a time penalty (Having to move around/through the mines) and for enemy ones to- unless they wish to risk killing off some men while they take a direct route

Post by **Balthagor** » Sep 02 2002

I think I can offer a bit of a â€œmiddle groundâ€ for this one. Hexes that have no industries do still have some production value. If a hex is mined, I believe that it should stop producing (Farmers get picky about farming around the land mines.).Also, if there is an industry (Hex Upgrade) there, it should take a hit on production levels.

Next, the level of civilian casualty should be based on your population density. If you have one person for 20 km2, the people just relocate. Land loss should also tick people off. Again, the level of unhappiness should be based on population density to reflect the perceived value of the land.

Juergen · Post by **Juergen** » Sep 02 2002

How will mines be delivered?

As far as I know alot of military untis have no trouble delivering mines,units like planes,artillery,helicopters and infantry.

Will there be different kinds of mines?

Like AP or AT or perhaps chemical mines.

Post by **Balthagor** » Sep 02 2002

We don't intend to have multiple mine types. We feel that would be unnecessary complexity.

As for mine delivery, our units spreadsheet includes a Y/N column for minelayer. Most of our minelaying units are infantry but we do have some arillery and helicopters that do ranged or aerial delivery. We where not going to have any planes do aerial delivery. I thought that was quite rare...?

Juergen · Post by **Juergen** » Sep 02 2002

Deploying mines by aircraft is actually quite possible.
The CBU-89/78 GATOR can be carried by most figher bombers like the A-10,F-15 and F-16.
These weapons are a bit like cluster bombs and carry about 80 mines(a mix of AT&AP as I understand)per weapon.
The Mk60 Captor can also be deployed by air,altough bigger aircraft.
The MK62-65 Quickstrike series can be deployes by smaller crafts (a F-18 is shown in the photo).
Of course I dont how common its is for mines to be deployed by aircrafts but the weapons do exist.And aircraft are very good at reacting very quick,so if a certain mountain pass needs to be mined before the enemy passes I can imagine sending an aircraft to seal the pass before it is too late.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Juergen on 2002-09-02 12:07 ]</font>

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Sep 03 2002

How about clearing minefields? While it might be possible to clear a path, removing all mines from a hex would be impossible within the timescale of a game/scenario??

Post by **Balthagor** » Sep 03 2002

You are correct that units clearing mines are actually clearing a path. Iâ€™m not sure if we will allow clearing of the hex entirely, but am not familiar with the difficulties in completely clearing an area. I can see making a small percentage chance of a unit being damaged by a mine that was in a hex previously believed to be clear, but I think that would also fall under the â€œrandom eventsâ€ that we intend to have an On/Off selection in the menus.

As far as aerial mine laying by planes, unless someone indicates there is a problem, I am giving this ability to only a select few units. The A-10 and SU-25/SU-39 will be given the ability, since these are ground attack vehicles primarily. I have also given the B1-B Lancer, T-160 Blackjack and TU-22M Backfire the ability for aerial minelaying. This makes each of these units a little more unique. As for helicopters, Iâ€™ll try and find out which ones can and canâ€™t.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Sep 03 2002

I dont think that entire hexs should be able to be cleared.
It takes years and years to clear mine fields in real life.
Some countrys have mine fields that were planted 30 years ago that they simply dont have the resources or tech to clean up.

Will mine fields have an attack value ?
If so,then clearing some mines in order to pass units thru the field should not remove the field but simply lower the fields attack value/probablity of inflicting damage on those passing thru it.

XeroMan · Post by **XeroMan** » Sep 07 2002

When it gets right down to it, you just need time and patience to clear a minefield. If a concerted effort was made, the mines could be cleared up. The type of terrain would also have a huge impact on the ease and the cost of such an operation.

Post by **BattleGoat** » Jun 20 2003

Here's the latest draft on Mine Field usage in the game. I realize it won't make everyone happy, but keep in mind the overall effect in the game...

LONG POST WARNING

Mine Laying - Should be a Right Click order for any unit with the ability to lay mines. Unit travels to target hex and after a time (ex. "X" times hex size) that hex will be considered mined. We need to have a Map Upgrade show up that indicates the presence of mines. You can't lay mines in a hex that has an upgrade (other than Road or Rail) The saturation of mines in a hex should be graphically represented. Mining a hex once takes so long and sets a mine saturation to Level 1. Giving the order to mine the hex again then sets the saturation to Level 2. And giving it a third time, set the saturation to Level 3. In this way a unit would have to take the full time to accomplish a level, and if they don't stay till the end, nothing is accomplished. The damage factor multiplies as the saturation is increased.

LOS on Mines - You see your own and any Allied Mines and any Mines that are located in your territory. You also see enemy or Neutral mines if you have a unit capable of removing mines in a hex next to mines. Otherwise you don't see that a hex has mines until you travel through it and take some damage or exert ZOC on its hex

The Mine Field Graphic should be Colour Coded to either Neutral/Enemy (no knowledge of exactly where the mines are) or Allied (you have a map of the mine field)

Friendly travel - Your own and allied units can travel through one of your mined hexes with immunity (assumes knowledge of the mines). Neutral and Enemy units would be susceptable to them.

Clearing Enemy / Neutral Mines - Done automatically by any unit capable of doing it, simply by parking them in the effected hex. (Time factor would be double that to set the mines) As is mentioned above, perhaps the graphic could reflect "Saturation" of mines in the area so even if you don't finish the job, you've removed some of the mines and the damage factor to a battalion would be reduced.

SPECIAL CASE

Air Deployed Mines --- No Friendly Immunity but you do get LOS on where the field is for you and your allies. Again you would have a Level 1 Saturation and could repeat for higher saturation. Sending your Anti Mine units into a hex with your own Air Deployed mines will assume that you want the area de-mined. If Air Deployed mines are deployed against you in your own territory, then you would have LOS on them.

DAMAGE : (At Saturation Level 1)
VERY MINIMAL DAMAGE - The major effect of a mine field is to drastically slow down units moving through it (and maybe give them some minor random damage) Units that are capable of removing/detecting mines are not slowed down as much.
(Attack Values Double and Triple with higher saturation)

MORE SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE - A mine field will have an exponential factor on damage if the units transversing it also come under attack from another source. Ie --- unit passing through mine field slows down to transverse it. If that unit then comes under artillery fire or direct attack, then it has to speed up to take cover etc and becomes far more susceptable to the mines. The same is true if a unit retreats into a mine field.

POSSIBLE DAMAGE INDICATORS
Saturation One (Not under additional fire)
- Hard/Soft Attack Values : 2
- Speed Reduction Factor : Reduces Speed by 1/4
(Anti Mine Units present make the Speed Reduction only 10%)

Saturation Two (Not under addition fire) : Double Above
Saturation Three (Not under addition fire) : Triple Above

Saturation One WITH Additional Fire :
- Hard/Soft Attack Values = 20

Saturation Two WITH Additional Fire :
- Hard/Soft Attack Values = 40

Saturation Three WITH Additional Fire :
- Hard/Soft Attack Value = 60

Speed Reduction is only 10% because the units are trying to maneuver as fast as possible out of the additional fire.

NOTE :

Use of Mine Layer should affect Domestic Approval Rating and World Market Approval Rating --- although somewhat worthwhile for defensive purposes, the PR of mines is very negative.

Juergen · Post by **Juergen** » Jun 20 2003

All in all Im happy with this system.

But it makes me a little sad that I wont be able to drop mines directly into cities...
But perhaps I could drop them into ruins?

Its a great idea to apply additional damage to units that are being attacked in a minefield.

There is one thing that disturbs me a little:

As I understand it the additional damage from the minefields would be applied as soon as the unit is attacked.
But is doesnt seem to matter who is the attacker is and if he is "strong" enough to "push" the defender into some mines.

So in theory a tiny units made of conscripts could heavily damage a M1 MBT unit by simply attacking them if they are caught in a minefield.
I dont know but this sounds a little wrong.

tkobo · Post by **tkobo** » Jun 20 2003

"LOS on Mines - You see your own and any Allied Mines and any Mines that are located in your territory. You also see enemy or Neutral mines if you have a unit capable of removing mines in a hex next to mines. Otherwise you don't see that a hex has mines until you travel through it and take some damage or exert ZOC on its hex ."

So by this,you cant lay mines in enemy territory without the enemy knowing ?