Map Upgrades - What constitutes too much clutter?

[BattleGoat]

Recently we've had some very lively discussions regarding the map upgrades that can built in Supreme Ruler 2010. There was concern that regions with a high concentration of an industry were looking too cluttered.

Below are three possibilities that reflect a specific area in Northern California. This are is high in timber production, and also produces Agriculture, Electricity, etc.


This was our original concept where a factory was smaller and sourced from a smaller area of the map. Hence many upgrades were needed.


This was our next concept. Here a factory icon is larger and there are less on the map. Each factory "takes" from a larger surrounding area.


Finally we have a concept of "Mix and Match" wherein the larger factories help reduce the clutter of the map, but there are two different sizes to each. Costs would be different to build and maintain, and the larger factories would be capable of producing approximately seven times that of a smaller upgrade.

Here's what we need feedback on:

Considering that there between 11 and 15 different production upgrades that could be placed on the map as it is, does having them also available in different sizes add an extra (unneeded) level of complexity? What other benefits and handicaps do you see with any of the possible designs?

Let us know what you think!



_________________
David Thompson
Lead Designer / Partner
BattleGoat Studios

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BattleGoat on 2002-06-17 10:19 ]</font>

[Reddemon]

Okay here is my opinion/questions:

1. What are the limits that you have imposed on items on the map? Meaning if i have 50 factories am i going to see 50 on the territory or am I only going to see like 10 factor with a + sign next to it stating i have more but not seen on the map and they are in the database.

2. Now if all the fatories/industry/etc etc are upgradable why would you have many of the lvl 1 items instead of upgrading the ones you have already. If I own 10 lvl1 factories I wouldnt buy another lvl1 factory I would upgrade one of the lvl1 to a lvl2 factory hence a lvl2 factory produces 3x has much as a lvl1 factory and so on and so on. Simple economics I say

3. I dislike a clutter map so if its possible why not have filters installed. That way you can see only what you want to see at that time.

4. Is having alot of stuff on the map going to effect the game in any way? If not then let me be able to see everything I have bought with may hard earn game bucks:) It just gives me a sense of accomplishment.

If it does effect the game then dont have it use a database and a + sign to represent you own more because I rather have a game that can be played smoothly from begining to end and not to start bogging down once you have half the world under your control

There is my take on it hope it helps

[tkobo]

Reddemon mentions filters,this is a very good idea.

I do however have some questions.
1: How many different types of map markers are there ?
How many industry markers,how many city markers,resource markers,etc -brake it down if you got the time please.

2: None of the map examples in this post show military units.The screens that do show military units(in the screen shot section of the site) are smaller and hard to see clearly.
Could we see another large screen shot(like those above) with military units added ?
Oh, and please put more military units on the map then you expect a player to ever have in his region(this should be calculated to include units that could be present due to HEAVY enemy incursions please).
This way if it still looks workable even when you've tried to break it by overloading it,we would have a good indication that it is solid as far as workability goes.

3:The maps have a zoom in/out function right ?

4: Can we have mulitple map windows open at the same time like in Harpoon ?

[Balthagor]

Wow! I thought I'd add to this thread but I'm almost afraid to! Well, here goes. Questions I can answer;

1. What are the limits that you have imposed on items on the map? (RedDemon)

Each industry is placed as a single building producing "X" amount of whatever. When placing upgrades, you are offered to place the upgrade at "xx%" capacity, max being what can be pulled from the land (assuming it isn't a synthetic porduct, then 100% as max) If you are producing 900,000 tonnes of industrial demands, you region demands 800,000, you buy from the market or build another upgrade to produce another 100,000 tonnes... or move your takes to take one...

2. Now if all the fatories/industry/etc etc are upgradable why would you ... (RedDemon)

If you have a factory at 60% and the area would support 87%, by all means, max it out! The problem we have run into is that in California, the demand for timber is so high that the shot you see is the start of the game! You begin with all those factories in California since you are a major producer of timber. We need to reduce clutter and still have the correct inital output per industry.

3. I dislike a clutter map so if its possible why not have filters installed (RedDemon)

Called for already in our design doc. What filters would you like to see though?

3:The maps have a zoom in/out function right ? (Tkobo)

Umm... We'll get back to you on this.

4: Can we have mulitple map windows open at the same time like in Harpoon ? (Tkobo)

No. Only one main window.


As far as the units, I will see if I can clutter a map with units and take a snap shot. Try and have that in tommorow. Don't know if it will make much difference. Also, it should be noted that, since you place upgrades based on percentage, mixing sizes can create an oddity. It would be possible to have a "large 10%" upgrade producing less (thus less important) than a "small 80%" upgrade. Will this cause confusion in the game?

[tkobo]

"Called for already in our design doc. What filters would you like to see though?"

By type of industry,by military,
by cities,and by resoures.

IE-So if i select military in the filter all millitary units will not be shown on the map.
I ask that industry be broken down by type because some of the industries wont be important in a tactical sense,this way I can keep track of the ones that are(like power) easier.

[Empier4552]

Not sure if I should keep this in this category or a new one but what about the actual size of land in each grid/map. I mean wont terrain effect just where a facility could be placed, and will limitatoins differ from grid to grid on certain buildings or population limits etc, and if so what sort of formulas are being used to figure out such limitatations etc?

[BattleGoat]

Hmmm... Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread

Anyways, I will try to further answer all the comments and questions :

RD:

1) Limits... No limit to the number of upgrades on the map, just limited to whether the terrain supports them.

2) New Factory vs Upgrade... Again goes to the terrain. A mine, well, farm, etc is placed because the territory supports it. A "Larger" facility will draw from a bigger zone of control than a small. If the territory surrounding a factory isn't worth it, you would be better building a small factory elsewhere on better support terrain.

3) Filters are definitely going to be there, and will be largely customizable.

4) There will be no gameplay impact (speed wise) on seeing all the upgrades, except that it may be harder to find a specific upgrade when the map becomes cluttered.


TK:

1) Map Markers... We haven't finalized that exact number yet. However, you can see there will be quite a few: There are 11 industries. Electricity, as an industry also has different types of factories ex. Hydro Electric, Coal Based Generators, Petroleum Based Generators, etc... There are Cities, Military Bases, Refugee Camps, Seaports, Airports, Launch Pads, and more...

2) We don't show military units as well on the pictures provided: That's because I wanted to specifically target the upgrade size in this discussion. We will be posting in other threads pictures that also have military units, once this issue is settled.

3) Yes... The maps will zoom.

4) And as Chris answered (although we do support Multiple Monitors), No... there will not be multiple map windows.


EMPIER

Terrain will affect what upgrades can be placed --- but only logically. For example, you can't build an ore mine on terrain that has no ore. Regardless of the type of terrain, mountainous, desert, etc... it is assumed that if you want and the contents of the land support it, you can build any upgrade anywhere.

[BattleGoat]

To get back to the heart of this thread... What I am specifically looking for from here are comments on which type of Upgrade sizes people like.

1) All Small Upgrades: you will need to have many and they only gather resources from a very limited are of land, represented by what they cover. This will lead to the most map clutter...

2) All Large Upgrades: you will need less upgrades and they will gather resources from a larger "surrounding" area on the map. Advantage Less Clutter

3) Mix and Match: Somewhat less clutter, particularly in map areas that have a concentration of a resource. Smaller factories fit small "Patches" of a resource and would be quicker and less expensive to build.
Advantages 1) Possibly more eye-candy value not having every upgrade the same size. 2) Upgrade size on the map likely reflects better concentrations of a resource.
Disadvantages 1) "Immigrant Furniture" with icons at different sizes, some might look out of place.
2) Confusing... It is possible for a small factory in a high concentration of a resource to produce more than a large factory.

So... Which way do you think we should go. Currently I am in the minority liking the "Mix and Match". Unless I can rally support, we will likely be going with Option 2, Larger Factories with bigger Zones of Control.

Thanks!

[Balthagor]

I forgot to mention, for those you aren't awware of the different types of upgrades players will be able to build, we have a section on the website showing most of the industries. There are about 5 missing at the moment but check out http://www.supremeruler2010.com/srugbits.htm to see all the upgrades available. This may help give an idea of the cluter we are concerned about.

[tkobo]

Definately number 3 for me.
Mix and match seems to offer the most options for the player.

[Reddemon]

I would have to go with Option 2. The reason why I have stated above in my last post. I dislike a clutter map

[3iff]

I like the idea of Mix and Match.

Question. Would a small factory cost less than a bigger factory, and perhaps have a lower maximum output? Could you then upgrade a small factory into a large factory?

Another question. Would resources 'run out'? Could a coalmine dry up, or deforestation occur if too many timber factories were operating?

I must re-read the info given so far.

drool...

[BattleGoat]

Would a small factory cost less than a bigger factory, and perhaps have a lower maximum output? Could you then upgrade a small factory into a large factory?

If we go the mix and match route, then Yes. Bigger would cost more and have a maximum production seven times that of a smaller factory. As well, it would take seven times longer to come on-line.

Would resources 'run out'? Could a coalmine dry up, or deforestation occur if too many timber factories were operating?

No... The time scope of the game is years, not eons. Therefore we assume a resource field would definitely last the length of a scenario.

[George Geczy]

Would resources 'run out'? Could a coalmine dry up, or deforestation occur if too many timber factories were operating?

We did discuss doing this, but as David mentioned it seems that the duration of each game makes this unnecessary from a realism standpoint.

Given that a game would span years or, at the very most decades, there are certainly differences than what you might get from a 'thousands of years of human history' type of civ game. But considering that real human leaders don't rule for thousands of years, I think we got the realism edge on this one.

PS - though I think Fidel Castro's starting to get close...

[3iff]

If we go the mix and match route, then Yes. Bigger would cost more and have a maximum production seven times that of a smaller factory. As well, it would take seven times longer to come on-line.

If that is the case, could we build a small factory (or base) then later upgrade it to a large one, getting the benefits of a large base when it is finally built (perhaps for the same cost as building a large one)...

ie. Build small base at cost 1
upgrade small base to large base at cost 7 (not 6!) with the original small base generating output of 1/7th of a large base until the large base is finished.

or, build large base at the start at cost 7
but no production until base is built.

Or, is that too complex/fiddly??

Would an upgrade require the original base to be demolished first??