The "Cutting Room" floor...

[BattleGoat]

Actually, one way to get around this is to allow us to name grouped units (Ctrl-1...9). I think you guys allow us to group them...right? If I can name a group 101st Reg, Northern Command...then this might be just as good.

This does seem workable (Naming any of the 0-9 Groupings) so you will be able to create a total of ten custom forces and give them unique names (if all works out okay).

BTW, although we might have that screen implemented in time for the next build, renaming the groupings won't be. That will probably not be done till the Final.

[Jug]

So do we want to track this group naming feature in Bugzilla or are you guys fine with putting it on your list?

[ilkhan]

Well sence stacking beyond 7 units in the same hex will have a penalty will 70 battalions be enouph of a micromanagment reduser.

And can we have a "thing" to set those "groupings" AI off. I would be willing to run with my Armys AI at 100% as long as I could control my groups. Because I don't want the AI running off with my groups just because I haven't touched them in 2 game months. I may have put them there for a reason my Uber-AI-General Field Marshal Von Laptop could not posably understand.
Ofcourse I am not a Beta tester (hint) so I may not know what I'm talking about here. But I gather that AI can assume control of units you arn't (or haven't been) using based of the % of control you give it.

Because if this is gonna be like the real world a nation like germany the U.S. and China could litaraly have thousands of battalions under wartime conditions. Maybe we could increase the number of Groups by maybe Ctrl+ 0-9 but I would like it better if you could just click or double click a stack. Or prehaps have a pop up tab with all your groups then you could select the group right from that pop up. I don't know...

In WWII Germany fielded a total of Approximatly 250 divisions 200 foot inf + 50 armored/mechanized even with only 10 battalions each (and I think in total they had more then 10) thats 2,500 battalions could you imagine the pain in the back side that would be to run?? and out of all that you get 10 groups??

Far be it from me to critizise but at least brigade size units need to be in just to lower the Micro-managment and grouping them together may reduse lag towards the end-game(??).

Perhaps some load bearing tests could be run with large nations on the world map. See how easy it is to control all those units.
I am dubious of only 10 groups and there cohesiveness if they don't move and stay together. If they do move and stay together then why can't we have more groups with a double click option to select them??

Sorry for rambling but I really think groups of this nature need to be here. Heck russian battalions can't even opperate independently away from there regments because all there support comes from the regment level, unlike western battalions which have all there support with them. Oh well I'll await a reply.

Oh did I mention I'm not a beta tester?? (hint)

Cheers

[ilkhan]

I don't mind 9 units to a hex sounds good to me. I would say if you can make 9 units move together as a unit and stick together as a unit that would be just blueberryish!! thats basicly all I ask...
well that and a race of Atomic Albino supermen with octaginal shaped bodys that suck blood...

Oh and more then 10 such units.

[prime_642]

ilkhan, i'm curious where you got that 20 battalions per division figure. When i was young (in the good old days) i used to think that a regiment was made of three battalions, a brigade was made of 3 regiments, and a division was made of 3 brigades. This would mean 27 battalions per division. Since then i've become older and wiser and learned better. Now it appears my learning has been in error. Could you please explain your figure of 20 battalions?

[Slash78]

Before World War One, the given was 3 battalions in a Regiment. 2 Regiments in a Brigade and 2 Brigades in a Division.

During World War One, many nations when to 3 Regiments per Division. One of the noted exceptions where the US Infantry division formed from National Guard units.

Now the term 'Brigade' and 'Regiment' or often used interchangably. A mondern US Army Brigade has 3 battalions of tanks or infantry and a battalion of artillery attached to it from the divisions artillery brigade (which has 3 to 6 battalions). A US Marine Regiment has three Marine Battalions and 1 artillery battalions attached to it from the divisions artillery regiment. Some foreign brigades have 2 regiments of 2 battalions.

For reference...
http://198.65.138.161/military/agency/army/index.html

http://198.65.138.161/military/agency/usmc/index.html

[ilkhan]

Ok, the best/clearest refrence to devisional orginazation is the russian Motar Rifle Division which was modeled heavaly of the WWII german model. It includes :
1 headquarters (320 men)
3 motor rifle regiments: 2700 men
with 3 inf battalions 1 armor battalion 1 artillary battalion + some support units
1 tank regiment: 1101 men 3 tank battalions
1 artillary regiment: 1800 men, 12 100mm guns, 24 122mm rocket launchers probably BM-21s, 12 AT-5 ATGM IFVs, 4 SS-21 missile launchers (like improved Scuds) 3 battalions of 24 152mm SP howitzers.
1 Air def battalion: 302 men, 20 SA-8B or 6 SA-6 sam launchers
1 independant tank battalion: 241 men 51 tanks
1 recon battalion: 300 men, 28 IFVs, 6 tanks + motorcycles
1 Engineer battalion: 380 men
1 signal battalion : 294 men
1 chemical def battalion: 150 men
1 medical battalion: 158 men
1 transport battalion: 217 men
1 maintenance battalion: 294 men
1 Aviation company: 220 men, 6 mi-2, 8 mi-8,
8 mi-24 helos
1 trafic control company: 60 men


These units are notoriously under maned in Support capabilitys. The russians do not have the profesanal well trained troops that the western nations have and they like to keep there support units at Army level in order to preserve them and keep them away from the front line fighting and to far away to be of much use.
The medical battalion for example isn't even big enouph to deal with peace time illness and ingurys.
The divisional transport is far to small to move supplys a great distance. the russian military would move in lurches. They would advance until there units ran out of supply then they would have to stop and wait for there supplys to catch up. resupply and lurch forward agien.
But including just the Inf, armor, artillary, recon, engineer, and Air defence youv'e got 23 battalions with 9 inf, 7 artillary, 4 tank, 1 recon, 1 engineer, 1 Air def.
If your wondering about the high consentrations of artillary it is because historicly artillary has accounted for over 50% of all killed and wounded enemys. You get the biggest bang for the buck out of Artillary.

[Fantnet]

http://www.bgforums.com/viewtopic.php?t ... forum=19&0

check out this thread any give me your ideas as it relates to this issue

[MrWhite]

Long time lurker and randome poster and beta tester but if you were wanting to model force formations why don't you use the America Amrys new Force Formation plans they are readily available at http://www.globalsecuirty.com

[ilkhan]

It seems that the American Doctrain is so flexable it is nearly imposable to pin down exactly what a Brigade actually incompasses anymore. It is true that the term Regiment and brigade are often interchangable. But aside from American Armored Cavalry Regiments the only regiments left in the west are actually glorified battalions.
In the US a battalion is a capable of independant action as a miniture army. This is not universal Soviet/russain battalions are not designed to be used in this manner and are designed to be used as part of a combined arms regiment basicly a miniture army unto its self.

But for our purposes a brigade is the ideal unit to use for our example. A unit in this game would be whatever we could stack and use in 1 hex. IMHO, these groups could be whatever the player wants to stack there and designate as a unit. If i stacked 9 tank battalions I should be able to designate that stack as a "brigade" for the purpose of this game. and these units would move and fight together. That is the key, a unit needs to be a group of battalions that will Move and Fight together, in the same hex. Once you designate a unit and bring coheasivness to those battalions you would select the stack/unit just as you would any battalion. I guess this is easyer said then done though.
I just can't imagine running a nation the size of the U.S. and running 2-300 battalions all individually. Talk about mind numbing. Better to form 30 to 40 units out of those battalions. Much more managable.

[Slash78]

There are still true regiments in the 'West'. US Marine Regiments.

[ilkhan]

Your right but it matters little to this line of discussion. Anyways, I never ment to get into a unit orginization discussion. The point is some sort of grouping system needs to be in place. I just don't think 10 groups is gonna cut it(the Ctrl 0-9 units). Just my opinion. But could some of the beta testers or Devs come on and say how hard it is to run an "Empire" with hundereds of battalions? I mean I don't want to sound critical of the AI system you've made without even seeing it, but I don't trust it to leave my border troops alone.
For example I'm playing Iraq and I place several battalions along my Southern border with Iran. and several more battalions in Bagdad proper as a reserve. and nothing along my syrian border. and a Syrian tank battalion moves up to my border. I don't care. But my AI thinks "oh no!!" and starts moving my units off the border with Iran. because I haven't touched them in 4 months to counter this "threat". I don't like this consept. I would rather run all my units. That is what this is about, to me, control. That is why I want something like "Brigades/Regiments" to cut the number of units we have to control down.
The only reason I even brought up Brigades and regiments is because I read that the max number of battalions you could stack in one hex, with out a penalty, was 7. That is just about what I would say was in a regiment or Brigade. and thus I sugjested forming Reg./Brig. size units that would move and fight together. To cut down on the number of units the player needs to control.
This is probably not even a productive area of discussion any longer. As the devs have said this is alot harder then it sounds. And would require a whole lot of extra work. I am no programer, I can't even get the darn cookies out of my computers memery. But I don't see the problem with "rubber banding" 7-9 units together and having them move and stick together. maybe renaming the unit as a whole (I don't see a real need for this if you could double click the unit and see what was in it)would be nice.
Then agien it might be fun to just set AI to 100% and just run the country instead of the military. From what I read the government modeling is gonna be great to.

[MrWhite]

Cool, Force Structure hasn't been my big things with the game so far either I mean yeah it would be easier to the mind not to have a a couple 100 to a couple 1000 Battalions walking around. I don't know how you could organize them other then to create some sort of HQ unit for staarting up divisions....

Ok flames please hold till I leave the country.

You build divisional units that contain upto 8 other units which are attached to a Division.

So let say for hotkeys you have 1 - 9

You slect a Division HQ unit and then 1-9 represents the untis of that division.

If a unit leaves a division or transfered then that number frees up and what not that way you can have sub 1-9 selection within a divisonal structure making it easier to control troops.

Just mindless ramblings from a VB Programmer don't hurt me...

[ilkhan]

That would work, anything at this point. battalion level is so micro for a major county. when you add up all the Armor, Inf, AA, Arti, engineer, supply trucks, anti-tank, recon, God knows what else is on the ground alone, not to even mention Air forces and the Navy. I'm scared hold me....