BGForums

Ash"Tkobo the dumb general isnt actually a general but a Russain Federation minister of strategic studies and the link was from this site, but its long gone now http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm they update daily."
Me:Ill look the site over.Its likely the article is still there,just not accessable by the old address.Most old articles are still left on a news site server.The links are just disconnected somehow I dont understand .I'll spend an hour or so tommorrow looking for it at the address and on the web.But either way,I can now assess the leanings of the stories host just by seeing what other stories are on the site,and the points of view expresssed in them.In my experience most "news" sites are very local politics oriented and slant the stories they host to match.

Ash"The view is just his opinion based on current info"
Me:Thats fine.Stated this way I have no problem with it as long as you also state that its based on HIS current info.Because THE current info-IE the accepted facts disagree with his claim.As does even more importantly, the results of the last 4 wars they were used in.We all have opinions ,problems occur when opinions are considered fact despite the evidence to the contrary.


ash:" but you must wonder why a few weeks ago dick cheney said "iraq would fall like a pack of cards"
Me:I'd say he was fairly on target.Too lose control of over 1/2+ of your country in less than 2 weeks seems like a falling house to me.Of course it isnt over yet and he could still be proven wrong.But so far the results back him.

ash" Donald Rumsfeld said that "the U.S would blitz iraq using small forces and air power"
Me:okay, and he's wrong on this in what way?
Tell me how much of the US and british armed forces are being used in Iraq ?Percentage wise its pretty small.Also the units that are currently there are split into 3 fronts,instead of one large front.
The german blitz of poland took what ? 3 weeks ? 4 weeks?And the poles continued to fight as partisans for years after this. We are not even past the 2nd week in this conflict yet.Day 12 ?The german blitz into france covered 400 miles in 17 days .The coalition have blown this pace away .And the germans had no concern for civilian casulties.These examples are relevant because there are the events that coined/solidified the term "blitz" in warfare.So if the term was defined by an advance that took 4 weeks,an advance that takes anything up to that 4 weeks would seem to fit the definition time wise.That gives the coalition 2 more weeks before it can be questioned reasonably as a blitz on a time basis,to defeat the organized/officail iraqi armed forces.


Ash"We are a week into the war the U.S have called massive forces into the gulf and the talk from bush,etc has changed into warning's about hard long battle's etc."
Me: Show me somewhere where Bush says this will be an easy war?I can't think of one.If I missed one please show me.I dislike politicians (incase you werent sure) and would not be suprised if he had.But I have not seen it and I pay attention fairly well to what they say and how they word it.

Ash"The article makes the point that although the U.S have Total Air domination against a poor nation that uses 70's era tanks and mainly poor conscript soldiers ,they have'nt moved from position, even when they have been hit Since Friday by some 3,000 precision-guided bombs, surely they should be destroyed let alone putting up stiff resistance."
Me:Hmm, the article would be wrong then.They (the repub gaurd) have both attempted to move and successfully made small moves .They have also been forced to move by the attacks of coalition forces.This is the"shaping of the battle field" we keep hearing about.If you watched tonights briefing the general(Brooks maybe or Franks?I'm horrible with names) clearly says multiple times that they have witnessed movement and attempts to move many times now.He has also said coalition attacks have made iraqi forces move to or in certain ways.
As for the precision bombs part.I really don't understand why people keep thinking of these as super killing magic silver bullets.They arent.Heck even club ray doesnt claim they are.What they are is cutting age tech that allows the forces who employ them a severe strategic and tactical advantage over forces who can't or dont.To expect everyone of them to hit their target,or to kill everything comprised in that target is unrealistic and as far as I know totally unclaimed by the makers or users.

Ash"As for the talk about being biased, my post was about the effect of air power and bombs no matter from what air force or army,my folk the brits are fighting at this moment and wont be involved in the battle for baghdad according to jeff hoon,hence the dead yanks sentance."
Me: words of advice.Many americans consider "yank" a derogatory term.Like calling an italian a "wap" or "ginnie",or a jewish person the many unnice terms used for them.In my opinion none of these terms are appropriate.I hesitated to even use the italian ones but could not think of another way to accurately convey the point without them.And since Im part Italian, I gave myself some leway with those names in this case.
As for your argument ,it is biased.Never once in it do you even offer the possibility your are wrong.You offer no other possible reasons for what your commenting on other than the ones you believe in.You also openly dismiss the accepted facts in favor of ones that support your argument without anything firmer than an opinion as support.

I can see in no way yet any reason to have BG lessen the effects of missiles or bombs in the game.Show me something tangible,something that convincingly counters the accepted facts and "known" results and I would be one of the first to join you asking for a change or toning down of the games planned implementation of these weapons.Heck look at how I pushed for a different system for the naval warfare in that thread.
But don't throw opinions at me and claim them to be fact.Dont exagerate or misqoute.
If an accepted "fact" is wrong there is evidence out there somewhere to show this.
The sargent york anti-air system was a prime example.The more people looked at this weapon system and questioned what they were told about it the more obvious it was that the system was almost complete junk.

Hmm love this discussion. Its like one of those death matches between two people. I definitely vote for Tk vs Ash in one of the first mutliplayer games in SR2010...that reminds me is their a spectator mode? Time to start a new thread.

Okay heres the FULL article including the entire begining that you for some reason failed to cut and paste ; maybe because its so inaccurate and based on unconfirmed information? or maybe you just missed it somehow .I do have to wonder.

March 28, 2003, 1448hrs MSK (GMT +3), Moscow - According to the latest intercepted radio communications, the command of the coalition group of forces near Karabela requested at least 12 more hours to get ready to storm the town. This delay is due to the much heavier losses sustained by the coalition troops during the sand storms then was originally believed. Just the US 3rd Mechanized Infantry Division sustained more than 200 disabled combat vehicles of various types. The 101st Airborne Division reported some 70 helicopters as being disabled. Additionally, the recently delivered reinforcements require rest and time to prepare for combat.

At the same time the US forces have resumed attacks near An-Nasiriya and An-Najaf since 0630hrs and are continuously increasing the intensity of these attacks. During the night and early morning of March 28 the Iraqi positions in these areas were subjected to eight aerial assaults by bombers and ground attack aircraft. However, so far [the coalition] was unable to penetrate the Iraqi defenses.

Also during the early morning the British units begun advancing along the Fao peninsula. Latest radio intercepts from this area show that under a continuous artillery and aerial bombardment the Iraqis have begun to gradually withdraw their forces toward Basra.

First firefights between troops of the US 82nd Airborne Division and the Iraqi forces occurred in northern Iraq in the area of Mosula. At the same time the arrival of up to 1,500 Kurdish troops has been observed in this area. So far it is not clear to which of the many Kurdish political movements these troops belong. Leaders of the largest Kurdish workers party categorically denied participation of their troops. They believe that these may be units of one of the local tribes not controlled by the central authorities of the Kurdish autonomy and "ready to fight with anyone" for money.

According to verified information, during the past 48 hours of the Iraqi counterattacks the coalition forces sustained the following losses: up to 30 killed, over 110 wounded and 20 missing in action; up to 30 combat vehicles lost or disabled, including at least 8 tanks and 2 self-propelled artillery systems, 2 helicopters and 2 unmanned aerial vehicles were lost in combat. Iraqi losses are around 300 killed, up to 800 wounded, 200 captured and up to 100 combat vehicles 25 of which were tanks. Most of the [ Iraqi ] losses were sustained due to the artillery fire and aerial bombardment that resumed by the evening of March 27.

First conclusions can be drawn from the war

The first week of the war surprised a number of military analysts and experts. The war in Iraq uncovered a range of problems previously left without a serious discussion and disproved several resilient myths.


I stopped my cut and paste about where yours started.
I have also looked the site over extremely well.
It is indeed an etremely biased site.In fact "The Russian Information Agency-Novosti (RIA-Novosti) is the state news and analytical agency of the Russian Federation".Its state owned by the russian Goverment.
Other sites hosting this story are:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/ ... ru_014.htm
Gee, another russian site.this one is hard to reach and might not work as the link is screwy.

http://www.puk.de/puk/print.php?sid=311
Gee another russian oriented site,east german to be exact.This one openly admits its a polictal site.In fact it allows you to free download this book "End of the global capitalism - the new historic project: Partizipative democracy and socialism of the 21st century"



http://www.nowarblog.org/archives/001213.html
Another example of the "news" stories this site carries are-
"Iraqi farmers feed starving US marines "
this site is a blog pretending to issue news.

Now TELL me again about MIS-information.
You couldnt have picked a story more biased,more unsuported orcarried by sites more biased with political agendas if you tried.
kinda makes one think.Did you try?

Also none of these stories mention a general,a minster or any other russian military/government related person as the "source".
In fact they all clearly say exactly who the source was "Tactical analysis of the IRAQWAR. RU " on infromation supplied by " a Russian intelligence group that has begun issuing reports, translated into English, on the military aspects of the Iraq war."
So a russian state run "news" site received information from an intelligence orq ,gave it to its anlysts and came up with the story you put so much faith in.

Why is it you got the source wrong ?
Why is YOU,the crier and accuser of real news stations as giving MISinformation never bothered to look at the site you got this information from ????????????
Well ,the as I call it "ashberry doctrine" could explain these oddities>
A simple biase could explain these oddities.
Or you simply didnt bother to do anything other than read an article and imediately sieze it as gospel because it voiced something that you agree with.
I'm sure I missed some other possible reasons,BUT i kinda think these the most likely. I could make a list even bigger than the "oh wait again " list.But I simply dont see want to.

I'm sure I could find an analyst on the 'net that would be happy to tell me that Iraq will win the war and control the world by 2010...

Ashbery's comments about the effectiveness of precision munitions are nothing new. Precision munitions are not more powerful...in fact they are often less powerful than non-precision munitions. They are only more effective in that you hit what you aim at. Some people (military insiders included) like to believe this means that you can solve all problems with a bomb...it's often said (only half jokingly) that the Air Force likes to think they don't need the other services to win.

Most of the comments made before the war were specifically meant to pressure Saddam into giving up, since diplomacy hasn't worked with him in 22 years. At this point, there's no point in trying to claim we'll win the war next week; instead it's important to make it clear that there is not a single known obstacle standing in the coalition's way that will prevent them from achieving their objective.

- Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

I'm getting bored with these petty post's by you,the fact is the question about using small forces and putting to much faith in guided bombs and air power and just like a lot of U.S commanders in the field have been telling reporters,the Rums'daft' plan is no revolution and the good old mass assault using big armor divisions is needed still.You say its only been 10 days! just look how many bombs have been dropped? more bombs than most nations can afford but the 70's tech era, third world nation with little natural cover apart from cities are still standing and fighting even though the iraqi people want liberation(what happend to WMD)LOL.

I stand by that great article that i got from novosti ,its a better to get a article from an independent source not involed in the war than a source with massive global arms sales interests like the Pentagon or the British MOD who talk bull more than IRAQI T.V.

Just to remind you of some U.S bull, remember the patriot missile defence that in Gulf war1 they said had a 80+% succes rate (tell the jews that) LOL, we know the truth now of course.And remember Kosovo, the laughable success rate they claimed only to backpeddle when the new elected serbian government took over and said "hang about we still have most of our tanks left".And the lies the MOD have told would take me 5 days to post, there's so many GEEZ.

BTW can you tell me about the unbiased reports you get about the war please.

http://www2.iraqwar.ru/iraq-browse_imag ... 52&lang=ru

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ashbery76 on 2003-04-02 04:40 ]</font>

So in other words, you'd rather believe someone else's biased lies over the US media's biased lies.

How about we all agree that none of us have enough meaningful data to be completely accurate, and we'll keep on doing what the military analysts (in and out of uniform) have been doing since the first cavemen started throwing rocks at each other: take our best guess.

Can we have a Strategic War 4000 BC board, where we can talk about the supposed effectiveness of precision guided rocks?

- Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

Ash"I'm getting bored with these petty post's by you,the fact is the question about using small forces and putting to much faith in guided bombs and air power and just like a lot of U.S commanders in the field have been telling reporters,the Rums'daft' plan is no revolution and the good old mass assault using big armor divisions is needed still."
Me:What a suprise .Yet again you talk of facts and offer only opinions as support.Even worse you only offer opinions you AGREE with and every one esle is lying.
And again you fail to even be accurate even in this.The plan was NOT designed, by rummie.
The plan was NOT created by Rummie.
The plan NOT put forth by rummie.
The plan WAS created by general Franks and those under him.It was then presented by THEM (franks and group)to Rummie,Joint chiefs,President,British Officails
,British Military,etc...
All of whom had a chance to examine and comment on it, Many of whom had a chance to dismiss and look for another.
Odd how you and others who have NOT taken time to check your facts contiually say its Rummie's plan.Odd how youm try to attack the person and the plan.Odd how you never say-"gee,i was wrong on this",yet keep making statements that are either flat out wrong -and or unproven- and or disagreed with by those in charge..Well odd until we factor in your biase and your doctrine.


Ash"You say its only been 10 days!"
Me:Geez how did you manage to get even that wrong.NO, I said is was 12 ? days."




Ash"just look how many bombs have been dropped? more bombs than most nations can afford but the 70's tech era,"
Whats this supposed to show ???
This is ALMOST as bad as your 300,000 dead russians statement.So far too many nations are poor and ill equiped tech wise.Gotta wonder why thier leaders dont change this???

Ash "third world nation with little natural cover apart from cities are still standing and fighting even though the iraqi people want liberation(what happend to WMD)LOL."
Me:Hahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahah.You just keep reaching dont you.Fighting and dieing you mean.With littler to nothing to show for it and yet your impressed.Seems odd til we remember your biase on this issue.Then it makes perfect predictable sense for you to feel this way.

I'm just so proud of them(the iraqis fighting) and how they lost another city yesterday.Yup they are fighting just so well and being just so effective against those poor coalition forces following a "BAD" plan and using "overrated weapons" that they lost yet again.yea more sarcasm.

Ash"I stand by that great article that i got from novosti ,its a better to get a article from an independent source not involed in the war than a source with massive global arms sales interests like the Pentagon or the British MOD who talk bull more than IRAQI T.V."
Me:Okay ,you agian fail to see and fact that you disagree with.So here it is again-Novosti IS NOT AN INDEPENDANT NEWS AGENCY-THEY ARE NOT AN INDEPENDANT NEWS SOURCE_THEY ARE OWNED BY THE RUSSIAN STATE.

Odd how you stand by almost anything you already agree with . Funny how that turns out.
Funny how you accuse others of missinformation yet then Knowing misrepresent the source of some opinion piece you put forth as evidence.Even misqoute it.Well not really funny.And as stated before,quite understandable considering your biase and doctrine.



Ash"Just to remind you of some U.S bull, remember the patriot missile defence that in Gulf war1 they said had a 80+% succes rate (tell the jews that) LOL,"
Me:There we go again,NOT the isrealis,BUT the jews!You are a piece of work .

Ash"we know the truth now of course.And remember Kosovo, the laughable success rate they claimed only to backpeddle when the new elected serbian government took over and said "hang about we still have most of our tanks left".And the lies the MOD have told would take me 5 days to post, there's so many GEEZ."
Me:Oh this is grand.I know why don't you tell us how the first gulf war was a victory for Iraq because saddam claimed it.After all,he's in power there(for the moment)just like the new serb gov,he lost the war just like the new serv gov,and they are both so trustable .
Oh wait theres more.Thats right ,more than a few memebers of the "new" serv gov were parts of the old serv gov.Oh wait theres more ,members of the "new" serb gov were tried for war crimes,at least one admitted guilt already and was sentanced-and most of saddams gov from the firt war is still in power (those he didnt kill after the war at least,and for the moment) and alot of them WILL BE charged and tried for war crimes.
Gee,what a suprise you have so much faith in them.


Ash "BTW can you tell me about the unbiased reports you get about the war please. "
Me:Gladly,although I have to honesty to admit they are few and far between EVEN when talking about the ones I agree with,Funny you can't do the same.Oh wait,again NOT funny,and quite predictable .
However the results are quire clear.The Iraq gov is losing immensely and will lose completely.And those poor coalition forces with their "bad"plan and "overrated weapons"
are somehow managing to slaughter a foe on his home ground that outnumbers them greatly and breaks the codes of war on a regul;ar basis .


So love the pic ash, whats next? Ones of dead coalition forces ??You really are a piece of work.
would you like me to start posting pics of Iraq destroyed Iraqi equipment? Want to bet who runs out of new pics first ?
You remind me of the "Paid" anti-war "volunteers" who hold the rallies.
Odd how so many of the organizers of them are paid and paid by foriegn countries like cuba at that.

Nagy to ash:So in other words, you'd rather believe someone else's biased lies over the US media's biased lies.

Me: Yup,you got him pegged well nag.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tkobo on 2003-04-02 05:41 ]</font>

LOL,This is what it comes down to then . I post a good article that a lot of dumb former U.S generals and military theorist's agree with and you take it as a personal anti american attack and reply once again with repetitive and pointless sarcasm because of your lack of understanding of the article.



Once again because of your blind biased you seem to have not understood what many dumb generals have been saying on CNN,FOX,NOVOSTI,ETC like general Clark who has never said the U.S will lose.

This is my last post in this topic because its going off topic and getting tiresome.

http://www2.iraqwar.ru/iraq-browse_imag ... 62&lang=ru




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ashbery76 on 2003-04-02 07:05 ]</font>

Ash"LOL,This is what it comes down to then . I post a good article"
Me:The article was an opinion piece based on questionable information from a questionable source carried by russian oriented(some socialist) political sites(who are anti-coalition and anti-war)(this war at least,they seem to like the Chechen war just fine).
The simple fact that you STILL think this was an unbiased ,fair or accurate "article" shows what I and others here already see about your stance on this.

Ash "that a lot of dumb former U.S generals and military theorist's agree with and you take it as a personal anti american attack and reply once again with repetitive and pointless sarcasm because of your lack of understanding of the article"
Me:Hahhahahahahahahahahahaah.Time and time again I show where your points are false and invalid.You the ignore the points and counter points,find a new one just as inaccurate and go on trying to support your beliefs despite reason or facts.It has nothing to do with me "understanding" anything.It has to do with you clinging to things you believe despite substantial proof to the opposite,despite those in charge saying your wrong,despite the "evidence " you use to support yourself being shown to be wrong time after time.Also I never ever said you were anti-american.


Ash"Once again because of your blind biased you seem to have not understood what many dumb generals have been saying on CNN,FOX,NOVOSTI,ETC like general Clark who has never said the U.S will lose."
Me:I'll say it again,even though I know it will fail to sway your fanatic beliefs.
To discount what the generals running the war say as lies or inacurrate and then cling to what their inferiors (rank wise,and situational knowledge wise) say WHEN it aggrees with what you beleive is incredibly biased.YOU ARE incredible biased on these topics.The fact that you can't see this OR more likely CHOOSE NOT TO see this is quite apparent.As others beside me have pointed out.Odd you didnt reply to naggies comments
or IBK02's comment.Both of whomas far as I can see call your methods and or conclussions into question.So out of the 4 posters,including you,3 of which dont believe what your trying to pass as fact.


Ash:This is my last post in this topic because its going off topic and getting tiresome.
Me: If i was religious I'd thank the gods.
While you do infact make some great posts and ask some great questions at times on this board.This post like a few others was "tiresome" the minute you tried to support your stand as fact with opinion,inuendo,inaccurate information and unconfirmed information.
But then those who really dont have a leg to stand on usaully do.
I'd say its been fun showing the MANY<MANY<MANY wrong things you posted and claimed in this thread,but to be honest it was simply another chore of life.On i'm glad is passing.

It's not as credible as CNN or Fox but...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,36 ... 84,00.html

The Guardian has something to say on this site.

Titles don't impart brains or wisdom, but they do grant a person access to a lot of info denied to the rest of us...

Just my Canadian nickel.

On edit: fixed link

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XeroMan on 2003-04-07 22:24 ]</font>

I said in my messages that we shall have to wait and see. Well...Ive seen. It seems to me that just because the Americans did not implement a policy of evisceration as the Russians implemented in Chechnya that their going to throw stones at a more strategic precise military operation.

The bombing campaigns have proven to be very effective. The Joint Military operations have proven to be very effective. Without restateing any previous points proving the success of the United States military operation, the speed, efficiency, few American casualties and little collateral damage (although we wont know real figures until after the war) are a testament to the planning of this military operations.

Do we honestly think that the United States would conduct a war without a plan of ultimate detail and contingency. No! and the haven't! Im sure ill have some disagreements, but this is what Germany did to Poland...except much cleaner.

Aljazerra might disagree with you, but what do they know?
But you're right. The Pentagon is to be trusted to give truthful accounts, just as it did in Vietnam. They have to be since the American public is so much more informed, so much more engaged than they were back then. The cable news networks will pick the government/military apart if they try to mislead anyone. I must say that George Bush is the most intensely scrutinized, investigated, harrassed and victimized president since Nixon. Why can't Fox give him a break for Christ's sake????

Fox? Is that sarcasm, Fox is definitely a conservative press. Fox is one of the least critical...maybe they scrutinize....but certainly not criticize.

There is always going to be disinformation, however, i think in this case it lies in European and Arabic media...oh yea...the New York Times. The vietnam was handled terribly, this was not.

By the way...Bagdad fell today.

It was nice however to see the NY times print the retraction and then the correction of the "war games" qoute.

So who thinks the war is actually over ?
Personally i think we got at least a week of fighting to go.
Saddams home town is still ready to fight ,last I heard.

As Heinlein said: it doesn't matter whether it's peace, conflict, a "police action", "tensions", or war...if you buy it, you're still dead.

I would say that the War is over once Mosul, Kirkuk, and Tikrit fall. That said, Iraq will be a dangerous place until the last coalition soldier is out.

- Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed