newbie help, please - quick Q . . .

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Slash[theTexan]
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newbie help, please - quick Q . . .

#1 Post by Slash[theTexan] » May 16 2008

I'm not sure which sub-forum this should be in, so please bear with me.

I am playing the SR2010 demo to see if I like it enough to get SR2020 when it gets released.

Question: How in the world do I get another state (I'm Washington, so . . .say Idaho) to respond favorably to my diplomatic initiatives? Every state rejects all my offers. I've overloaded my offers with everything but the kitchen sink, and all I ask in return is an embassy!

I'm playing a scenario with the objective of Unification, so obviously I'm no warlord, just practicing diplomacy.

Oh, another Q: IRL, lowering taxes spurs investment, which results in a larger tax base (everyone paying less, but there's more who arer paying). This does not seem to be the games programming, though.
So what do I do to spur investment, and feed developments and discovery? (I've invested a TON of $$ in education, but it doesn't seem to be helping . . .).

Also, could this be just a shortcoming in the demo, not seen in the full game?

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help. I hope I can get this game to work the way I perceive it to be, so I can get SR202 and play on-line. It sounds like fun! :-)

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Lightbringer
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#2 Post by Lightbringer » May 16 2008

From one Texan to another...Welcome to the forums!

Let me see where to begin. Imagine you (as the Human player) are a plantation owner in the year 1870. Now imagine that all the AI countries are recently freed slaves. That might give you a decent warning about how stubbornly the AI hates human players in 2010. It is not impossible, just very very tough. The most important gauge is the target country's Causus Belli rating towards you. Anything close to or above 50% is going to make success extremely expensive. The good news is that you can reduce AI Belli against yourself. Start out with some simple tech or unit design trades. Ask for something cheap like towed arty (even if you don't need the design) or one of the simpler/cheaper techs. Now offer them something flashy and expensive. For unit designs I offer stuff that will bankrupt the AI region if they actually try and build the unit. Tech designs, I use breakthroughs that enable them to build new types of facilities. One of the weaknesses of 2010 is the AI can not build new facilities. Anyway, make sure the amount you offer outweighs what you ask for by a respectable margin. Now add a billion (or ten :P) dollars to your offer. Unless they completely hate your guts, this should reduce their Belli. Rinse and repeat a few times. Don't give them everything you have, because next you want to suggest a trade treaty. Same technique... just add some cash and maybe a tech on top. Also feel free to add some of the less useful treaty stuff as a bonus too. Criminal extradition etc. If they accept then you have a better shot at getting the embassy.

Basically it is a matter of seducing them one small step at a time. 2020 is supposed to have some of this smoothed out and revamped.

As for turbo charging your research, there are quite a few ways to help it along. Education can help, but not enough to warrant massive investment. I usually don't push mine past 100%. The most obvious way is to dump cash directly into research. Also, an extra research center or two can help.

As for the economy, it does not mirror the real world, because in 2010, everything functions as if the government owns everything. That being said, it does function reasonably well. If you drop taxes, prices will start to come down, and consumers will start to buy more stuff. There are several threads (I'll post links) discussing economic play in 2010 for new players.

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9681
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9684

The wife is bugging me to go shopping, but feel free to post further questions, and myself or someone else will be happy to give more in-depth answers. :)

-Light

P.S.- The economy and research forums have many many more threads discussing various techniques and styles of play.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

Slash[theTexan]
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#3 Post by Slash[theTexan] » May 16 2008

Thank you for the detailed response (it sounds like the game's got you hooked! I better be careful, LOL).

I've never been much of a warrior type (FPS's are OK, but I prefer SWAT 4). I play TDU most of the time. But I'd like something a bit intellectual to play and thought this might be it.

I like the idea of playing the "head guy", be he President, Dictator, King, whatever, and trying to deal with the intricacies of that position. You know - set policy - leave the details to others you put in charge. Play a part on the world stage. Stuff like that.

SO . . . Is this game playable as something like a diplomacy thing, or is the underlying point to be a Commander in Chief and take over your neighbors?


Thanks again!

**************************************
EDIT:

OK. I've looked over the links you supplied. Looks like this game is EXTREMELY in-depth. I'm hoping to try and avoid having to tell ministers to increase production and/or efficiency, or where to build a new consumer goods plant, oil well or seaport, etc. I really don't want to go into minute details and P&L statements, whatever.

I'll try and set objectives for my ministers and then keep my eye on them as they do (or not do) their jobs. How would I check on what they are doing (or not doing)? You know, performance reviews, things like that. Can I fire a minister? Is there a Congress, parliament, knesset, whetever?
Do I have to pay attention to all the little details to "win"? Or can I be a policy maker, diplomacy player and still "win"?
Or . . . should I be looking for another game? :-)

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Lightbringer
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#4 Post by Lightbringer » May 17 2008

Slash-

You ask an interesting set of questions. That is one of the aspects of this game that I like a lot. The game lends itself to being played at any "depth" you want to dive into it, and talking to the players here is always as varied as the problems and solutions the game offers. In addition, your questions strike upon several areas that are supposed to be overhauled to various degrees in 2020, so my answers will try and reflect both games a bit.
Slash wrote:I've never been much of a warrior type (FPS's are OK, but I prefer SWAT 4). I play TDU most of the time. But I'd like something a bit intellectual to play and thought this might be it.This game definitely gets a few more neurons firing than most.

I like the idea of playing the "head guy", be he President, Dictator, King, whatever, and trying to deal with the intricacies of that position. You know - set policy - leave the details to others you put in charge. Play a part on the world stage. Stuff like that.The Ministers can handle most of the "daily grind" type details, but be warned. They don't always do what you expect (with or without orders), and they don't always do a good job. The consensus for 2010 was to give the Ministers very few direct orders, and to lock them out of areas that they start to screw up in or that the player wanted direct control. Also, there is no simulated interaction with other leaders, so while you will "play a part on the world stage", you will have to use your imagination to flesh out the other actors and the audience.

SO . . . Is this game playable as something like a diplomacy thing, or is the underlying point to be a Commander in Chief and take over your neighbors?Yes. That is to say, you can play 2010 with a diplomatic emphasis, but the AI is programmed to not like Human players. So you will very likely end up commanding your armies whether you want to or not. Full diplomatic success is dependent on resources and cash, and keeping a very meek military build cap (Build Cap = the number of units buildable in all your bases at any one time. Any Country with a smaller Cap will start gaining Belli against you at a quicker rate.) Even the AI can do the math. $$+resources+weak army= Target. In any case, it can and has been done, and 2020 is supposed to have a much healthier diplomacy section. I have yet to play it, so how much healthier is yet to be seen.


Thanks again!

**************************************
EDIT:

OK. I've looked over the links you supplied. Looks like this game is EXTREMELY in-depth. I'm hoping to try and avoid having to tell ministers to increase production and/or efficiency, or where to build a new consumer goods plant, oil well or seaport, etc. I really don't want to go into minute details and P&L statements, whatever.Well, your Ministers will do their jobs passably well without any orders whatsoever. They tend to be lackluster at reacting to crises, so that is usually where ordering them comes into play. The bad news is, Just as the AI countries can not build new factories, bases mines etc., neither can your own AI. If you want to take advantage of that undeveloped oil field, you will have to do so "manually". The good news is that this aspect of the game isn't hard or time consuming. 2020 has made some fundamental changes to the system, but from what I have seen of it, you still won't be spending a large % of play time dealing with building stuff. As for detailed reports, you can skim along and stay at the level of knowing whether you have a shortage or not if you wish. Surpluses and exports and such can all be done automatically. Even with a shortage, the AI will automatically import goods to cover it. Money is the same way, you can pay attention to the bottom line and give some general directions to fix money problems. The ministers may not perform as well as you will in fixing them, but they do try.

I'll try and set objectives for my ministers and then keep my eye on them as they do (or not do) their jobs. How would I check on what they are doing (or not doing)? Each Minister has two color bars next to their picture that indicate their performance, and their stress over the present situation. Judging their performance, however, usually involves watching the data about their area of influence. Population happiness, cash flow etc.You know, performance reviews, things like that. Can I fire a minister? Yes. There is a whole list of various replacements you can put into each minister slot. Is there a Congress, parliament, knesset, whetever? Yes. It is generally assumed they keep busy (and out of your sight) passing legislation to protect endangered species, accusing each other of sex scandals, and doing all the wonderfully useless stuff they normally do. In the process, they actually leave you alone to get on with the job of running the country. (Technically speaking, No.)
Do I have to pay attention to all the little details to "win"? Or can I be a policy maker, diplomacy player and still "win"? The answer to both questions is actually yes. It all depends on what level of winning you want. You can win without diving too deep into the details, but your chances go up drastically the deeper you dive into running your country.
As for whether this is the game for you? Only you can judge. From what you are asking, this is probably too "in depth" for what you want. Then again, as I have stated, this game works on whatever level you want to play it. You might find yourself trying it on the surface, and diving for the pearls in the deep waters before you know it. I have watched several players develop a taste for details of the game that very same way. Also, 2020 is different in several ways, and may lend itself to more prolonged "surface" play. Whatever you decide in the long run, I hope you enjoy trying 2010 out, and as always questions are welcome. :D

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

Slash[theTexan]
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#5 Post by Slash[theTexan] » May 17 2008

Lightbringer, you are awsome! Thank you and kudos! You're definitely a "get 'er done!" dude.


I'm getting a handle on this game (and I'm glad it's not one of those games you can just jump in and fly by the seat of your pants). It takes time, patience and effort.
I like that.

Sooo . . . how is MP different? Are there different groups, say one group who enjoy playing the military aspect, and others who do a more "let's-exchange-emails-and-ideas-and-work-for-a-better-world" kind of stuff? Do people run their own servers, or is there a central server that runs everything (like TDU)?

I'm hoping the online aspect can be much more dynamic and intense than the SP.

Thanks again!

slash

*************************************
EDIT: I've started a new test game, explained to my ministers what I want done and started looking at my neighbor's political/financial settings. I've started working on my transport infrastructure (sorely lacking - roads/rail) and am sitting back to see what develops.

I've already seen a huge increase in my bottom line and hope to influence my neighbors with dollar signs (always helps, well, IRL!).

Thanks,

slash

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Lightbringer
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#6 Post by Lightbringer » May 17 2008

Slash-

MP never really took off in 2010. There are several reasons for this, not least of which is the spread out, global nature of the players. The set-up for MP was for one of the player's comps to function as the server, and there seemed to be no end of glitches inherent in meshing multiple player's comps directly. (Example: Four people would agree to a game and set up a time, then only 2-3 would be able to actually "log-in" to the game because of various incompatible firewalls and network set-ups.) Another aspect of this system was the difficulties it created with continuing a game past one session. The host would have to email copies of the save-game to other players for a second session. Also, there is no way for players to join or drop out during play. Lastly, the very nature of the game did not translate well into MP. Most individual players had their own individual "patterns" of playing. Some like to pause more often, some not as often, but for longer periods. Some like to spend a lot of time straightening out their economy before they looked towards conquest. What MP turned into was a "free for all" of unit production and combat, with almost no diplomacy or economic development.

So, all in all, online MP play is very much more dynamic and intense, perhaps not in the way you envisioned. Do not get me wrong, MP games are fun and a bit of an adrenaline rush. But to me ( and I dare say most 2010 players), 2010 is most properly played when I can invest a few hundred hours into developing my country and fulfilling long range research and military plans. Arranging MP games for that many sessions is nigh on impossible. MP 2010 is very similar to "Age of Empires" with Tanks. I have forgotten exactly what the status of MP is with 2020, I'd have to scan through the 2020 section of the forum and refresh my knowledge.

As for building up your roads and rail system... you do not need to invest cash into connecting every town and oil well and base with some sort of roads. There is a "social spending" category called "infrastructure". This represents the invisible web of smaller roads and rail lines that covers your nation. The visible ones only represent major highways and trunk line rail. You are thinking correctly to improve your infrastructure and supply, but you do not need to build tons of roads to do this. "Supply" spreads out from every town and base you own. The further out, the weaker it is. Visible roads and rails cause supply to extend further out along themselves, but do not create supply in and of themselves. Invest in Infrastructure inside the social spending screen, and save road building for special cases.

Example: Part of your country is an empty desert with a large oil deposit. Since there are no bases or cities nearby, any oil wells you build will not produce as much oil as possible because of low supply. My suggested solution would be to build a small army base next to the deposit, and then a road stretching from the base through the deposits, extending the raised supply level.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

Slash[theTexan]
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#7 Post by Slash[theTexan] » May 18 2008

Ahh, I understand.

The intricacies of SR2010 and the dynamics of real-time VS turn-based kinda' make MP playing . . . difficult at best.

Bummer, as I would have thought MP would be more . . . challenging, and intense, playing against human opponents.

I will continue to play the 2010 demo, as the more I learn, the deeper I get (do I take the red pill, or the blue pill?, LOL!), and the more fun it gets.

I await the 2020 demo and hope it will be what everyone, amateurs and veterans, newbies and pros, want to see in the next version of SR.

I'm sure I will have more Q's in the next week or so as I progress (haphazardly) in this game, so stay tuned (LOL)!
I have a few cruises to host in TDU, but I'll be around - count on it, LOL!

Thanks,

slash

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Lightbringer
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#8 Post by Lightbringer » May 18 2008

Slash-

I hope you have fun on your cruises, and I'm glad you are having fun with 2010. :) I'll keep an eye out and do my best to clear any questions you have up for you.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#9 Post by SGTscuba » May 18 2008

Mp's arn't dead. It kust depends who you play with. Like light said it is easier to play with people within your country. I play it with a few guys I know from school and so far it has been very little differnce compared to the normal SP game. All my mate does as russia is select a box around large groups of troops and points them at the other side of europe. He does this because I am china and his ally. We tend to work together and whoever has the lowest score out of the two of us when everyone else is beaten has to surrender to the other guy. Maybe this is easier because we all sit around a table and play and can talk to each other physically. When we get peed of sometimes we hit each other under the table. MP is not dead alltogether althougth things get silly like each of us having over 1000 build cap but it is better played with people in your timezone set up on the same netwrok (i.e your home network).

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Re:

#10 Post by cathpeti34 » May 21 2019

Lightbringer wrote:
May 16 2008
From one Texan to another...Welcome to the forums!

Let me see where to begin. Imagine you (as the Human player) are a plantation owner in the year 1870. Now imagine that all the AI countries are recently freed slaves. That might give you a decent warning about how stubbornly the AI hates human players in 2010. It is not impossible, just very very tough. The most important gauge is the target country's Causus Belli rating towards you. Anything close to or above 50% is going to make success extremely expensive. The good news is that you can reduce AI Belli against yourself. Start out with some simple tech or unit design trades. Ask for something cheap like towed arty (even if you don't need the design) or one of the simpler/cheaper techs. Now offer them something flashy and expensive. For unit designs I offer stuff that will bankrupt the AI region if they actually try and build the unit Baignoire à porte. Tech designs, I use breakthroughs that enable them to build new types of facilities. One of the weaknesses of 2010 is the AI can not build new facilities. Anyway, make sure the amount you offer outweighs what you ask for by a respectable margin. Now add a billion (or ten :P) dollars to your offer. Unless they completely hate your guts, this should reduce their Belli. Rinse and repeat a few times. Don't give them everything you have, because next you want to suggest a trade treaty. Same technique... just add some cash and maybe a tech on top. Also feel free to add some of the less useful treaty stuff as a bonus too. Criminal extradition etc. If they accept then you have a better shot at getting the embassy.

Basically it is a matter of seducing them one small step at a time. 2020 is supposed to have some of this smoothed out and revamped.

As for turbo charging your research, there are quite a few ways to help it along. Education can help, but not enough to warrant massive investment. I usually don't push mine past 100%. The most obvious way is to dump cash directly into research. Also, an extra research center or two can help.

As for the economy, it does not mirror the real world, because in 2010, everything functions as if the government owns everything. That being said, it does function reasonably well. If you drop taxes, prices will start to come down, and consumers will start to buy more stuff. There are several threads (I'll post links) discussing economic play in 2010 for new players.

viewtopic.php?t=9681
viewtopic.php?t=9684

The wife is bugging me to go shopping, but feel free to post further questions, and myself or someone else will be happy to give more in-depth answers. :)

-Light

P.S.- The economy and research forums have many many more threads discussing various techniques and styles of play.
It would be really a good idea. We will try this, see if it works. In any case, thank you for sharing.

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